Transcript for A Sacred Text: Reading Harry Potter
Nelufar V/O(00:05):
Hi, I'm Nelufar, and I'm a journalist on a mission to find out what spiritual connection looks like when you are not into traditional religions, let's say. Welcome to Ritually. Now, in each episode of this podcast, I'm going to explore a spiritual or wellness ritual. This week I'm exploring a ritual around reading, because I wanna know how to turn any text sacred, what makes a sacred text anyway, and how can we, the people of the modern age that is, forge our own secular sacred texts. On the pod today, our guest, Vanessa Zoltan, reminds us not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Vanessa (00:58):
I don't feel comfortable saying everyone should throw out the old text, but certainly we should feel invited into new ones.
Nelufar V/O (01:07):
And my producer Sarah drops the bombshell on her saucy sacred text.
Producer Sarah (01:12):
I had a very dreamy looking English teacher, and he handed me this book, and I was like, this is the book that I want to read my whole life.
Nelufar V/O (01:31):
I have a complicated relationship with my faith. I was raised as a Muslim, and when I was younger, I spent many a Saturday morning in an itchy headscarf. Every weekend I'd schlep to a friend's house where her dad taught us to recite the Quran in Arabic. A language I didn't understand, and sadly, I've never learned. But even so, the black and white words on the page held me captive. In my late teens, I got curious and I bought a copy in English. Reading the words and actually comprehending them opened up an entirely new world. I liked some of the verses in the text, but when I read others, I was like, really? Now as a grown up, I wanna find new, sacred texts that can frame my spiritual life and experience.
Nelufar V/O (02:23):
It turns out there's a ritual for that. It's called Floralegia, which means a gathering of flowers or a collection of extracts from a text. It was used by medieval monks, and at its essence, it's a lot like keeping a quotes journal. It was up to producer Sarah to find the right guide to help me with this ritual. And I have to say, the babe has outdone herself. Vanessa Zoltan describes herself as an atheist chaplain that someone who provides spiritual guidance and insight without references to God. She's also the co-host and the producer of the podcast, Harry Potter and The Sacred Text, and she started it with her friend, Casper Ter Kuile. Now, this truly has to be an alignment of our planets because for me, there is no better place to start than the text that I know best and already considered to be sacred. The Harry Potter series by JK Rowling. Now, I've read each of those books about 15 times, and so of course, I chose it as my specialist subject for the BBC Quiz Show, celebrity Mastermind.
Celebrity Mastermind presenter, John Humphrys (03:31):
When Ron becomes a perfect in the order of the Phoenix, what present has Ron asked his mum for as a reward? A broom is exactly right. You have 10 points.
Nelufar V/O (03:42):
Yeah, not nervous at all. Vanessa's podcast, Harry Potter and the Sacred Text is wildly popular. It's got about 60 million downloads, and on each episode, she explores a chapter of the book through Ancient Reading rituals. Let's hear a bit from the podcast.
Vanessa Zoltan (04:00):
Why are you excited to do a Harry Potter and the Sacred Text Podcast?
Casper Ter Kuile (04:04):
The same questions of love and fear and death, and even resurrection that were showing up in the Bible class were showing up in the Harry Potter texts, and the difference was that the Harry Potter books felt like they were mine.
Nelufar V/O (04:16):
But how did it all start? Vanessa grew up in Los Angeles and now lives in Boston. She was raised in the Jewish faith, but she struggled to pray with a Jewish holy text, the Hebrew Bible.
Vanessa (04:32):
I kept getting distracted by the fact that the Bible has caused so much pain in the world, and you know, I would pray these Jewish prayers about God's benevolence, and I was like, Ugh, God's not benevolent. The wrong people suffer all the time, right? I'm like, this just doesn't feel true to me.
Nelufar V/O (04:50):
Vanessa went to Harvard Divinity School where she learned how to connect and unpack religious texts.
Vanessa (04:58):
I think what we've done wrong is that we've believed that those texts have been codified, and it's like, oh, the age of miracles is over, and now there's only one interpretation of the Bible that we can read, and these texts were always meant to be alive. But I absolutely think that some people are traumatized by these texts for any number of reasons. And as somebody who is the grandchild of Holocaust survivors, for me, it is that my grandparents became atheists when they left the camps, and I just hear the voices of my ancestors saying The Shema before the gas came out.
Nelufar (05:43):
The Shema is one of the essential prayers in Jewish faith. Jews are supposed to say it not only in the morning and evening, but also when they're on their deathbed.
Vanessa (05:53):
I cannot connect with this text in the same way that other people can, and we have to connect to whatever works for us.
Nelufar (06:00):
How can we find spiritual guidance and prayer and meaning in books that are important to us?
Vanessa (06:07):
Yeah, so we sort of have outlined a way to do this. The first step is picking something that you love. Treating a text as sacred is difficult and hopefully a lifelong partnership.
Vanessa (06:25):
So Florilegia, I would say, is the practice that most of us who love reading anyway probably already engage in. And so you're reading a book and something about it, you're just like, Ugh, yes, this. Or you're listening to a podcast, you're listening to a song, and you're like, yes, I know exactly what that feeling is. We call that a sparkle. So it is something that sparkled up at you and you write it down, and that's really the first step. You just write it down and there's something magical in that act that now we know, like neurologically, it gets sort of written onto your brain in a different way once you've written it down, and then you know, you keep reading, and then the next sentence that sparkles up at you, you also write down, and you continue to do that for however long you're reading, you know, a chapter, 10 minutes, a whole book, whatever it is.
Nelufar (07:19):
How do you treat the sparklets as sacred? Do I need to analyze it in a certain way?
Vanessa (07:25):
Some questions you can ask yourself. It's really just why did the sparkle up at me? That practice of articulating it to yourself is helpful, but I also just think that reading and rereading works on us. I think it changes us, and I think if we have the opportunity to do it with friends, right? And to have a friend say, why did that sparkle up at you? What was it about this? I think that often we figure out what we think in conversation, and so that can be really beneficial.
Nelufar V/O (08:03):
Time for Ritual, I've chosen to follow Vanessa's guidance and do it with my friend and producer, Sarah. We're gonna spend some time practicing floral Ledger with our favorite texts, writing down the bits that sparkle, and then discussing them together. Sarah and I have worked together for 10 years now, and we've dreamed up lots of ideas, this podcast being one of them, and so she felt like the exact right person that I wanted to try this ritual with. We decided to do it at Producer Sarah's house because well, she's got the bigger, more impressive bookshelf for us to plunder.
Nelufar (08:46):
Okay, we're here.
Sarah (08:52):
Thank you
Nelufar V/O (08:52):
I was wearing my favorite beaded floral headband with shimmering diamante and a scattering of pearly enamel flowers all over. Casual.
Producer Sarah (09:03):
You look like a princess.
Nelufar (09:04):
Yeah princess vibes. Oh, can I come in? Yes, please. Okay, let me take my shoes off first. Yes, thank you.
Producer Sarah (09:16):
Well, why do you wanna do this, Nel?
Nelufar (09:18):
The reason that I picked this particular ritual, I think was because I was very young when books offered me a safety that my real world didn't, for someone who didn't speak English as a first language, learning the roots to each letter, the pathways of an A and an N and a G, and realizing that these things then had meaning, and those meanings could paint a picture and I could live in those moments was the most magical thing that I've ever experienced, which is why I did a degree in English literature, because to me, reading and getting meaning from reading is the closest thing to sorcery will come up with it. It's an intangible, invisible form of connection. Right?
Producer Sarah (10:12):
I studied English at university too, so I'm like…
Nelufar (10:15):
Two boffins in this room reading Harry Potter, the coolest podcast coming to you this week, <laugh>.
So I remember when World Book Day happened for the first time in my disadvantaged poor community school where I lived, and I was adamant that I was going to buy the philosopher stone, and I didn't have eight pounds, so I couldn't buy it. I remember my mom knew what was happening, and we had a visit to a bookshop, and my mom made sure that I had enough money to go and buy this really important book. I could smell the moment that I'm speaking of, I can hear the ruffles of the pages. And then there's this character that emerges from the pages who isn't cool or handsome or terribly bright, who thinks about moral decisions, who has death and difficulty as the bedrock of who they are. And I saw myself in this kid.
Sarah (11:12):
I think every child wants to think they're a bit special. And I think there's something about Harry Potter where you get that special feeling that you are chosen and you are a bit of an outsider, and you are a bit of a geek, and yet you are the person who saves the day.
Nelufar (11:30):
But you were that at school, weren't you?
Sarah (11:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. But the best people are, right? It's like the popular kids. They peak at school and that's it. Yeah. And then it's the geeky outsider. Kids are the ones that change the world.
Nelufar (11:43):
Here we are. Let's do it. Let's change the world. So what is the first step?
Sarah (11:50):
The first step is you're going to read this chapter, and then you're gonna write down anything that sparkles to you that kind of jumps out to you, any sentence. Okay.
Nelufar(12:04):
So I've got my book and my notepad, and I've got my pen. It's time to Make brilliant podcast by reading quietly and silently in the corner. <laugh>.
Nelufar (12:16):
We'll be back after this break.
Right before I read the Sparklets, a quick summary for non potter heads. It's chapter 36, book five. Spoiler alert. Harry Potter is a 15 year old wizard who has just watched his only living relative, his godfather, serious, get pushed through an archway into, well, well, we never really know. He just sort of stops existing. The fatal curse that propels him through this archway is delivered by a mad woman, Bellatrix LeRange, who serves Harry's enemy. Voldemort. All you need to know is that Harry wants revenge. He wants to kill Bellatrix with an unforgivable curse. All right, onto the sparklets. I chose
Nelufar (13:12):
Harry still staring at the archway. He was angry at Sirius now for keeping him waiting. He had never kept him waiting this long. She killed him. I'll kill her. Hatred rose in Harry as he had never known before. You need to mean them potter. You need to really want to cause pain to enjoy it. He felt a surge of fury that was quite unconnected with his own rage. We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man. Death is nothing compared to this.
Nelufar V/O (14:12):
Reading, this passage, I felt a stillness in the air, and my ears were ringing with the sound of each pause. The ritual was creating a sort of space, like a cocoon for reflection. And my emotions began churning, filling it, getting dressed, and driving over to Sarah's that day. I wasn't expecting to encounter all of this stuff.
Producer Sarah (14:40):
Is there anything that you've written down that you feel particularly connected to?
Nelufar (14:43):
That bit where Bellatrix, our murderer says, you need to mean them Potter, the unforgivable curses. You need to really want to cause pain. She says to enjoy it. And I have read that sentence dozens of times. I'm like, how? How can anyone do that? You know, I might get really angry at the person earlier today who was trying to cut through the traffic from me and be like, you know, raging banshee. But to really wanna hurt someone, to really wanna hurt them, it just feels so out of the realms of possibility for me. And so it's the scariest sentence, I think.
Producer Sarah (15:24):
Do you think it's cuz it's this calculated cruelty.
Nelufar (15:26):
Yeah.
Producer Sarah (15:27):
Which you see so much of in the world.
Nelufar (15:29):
Yeah. Yeah. In some of the stories that I've covered in my journalism and some of the people I've interviewed, I've met that I've met Bellatrix in real life, right? I've met traffickers of people and babies, and I've met folks who've committed atrocities. So reading it in this safe space allows me to explore the antithesis of why I think I exist. I want to never see a person like that again.
Producer Sarah (15:57):
But I think it's interesting that you say you don't wanna see that person again. Yet this is the person who you are focusing on. You've chosen to go to the chapter, you've chosen to meet Bellatrix. Do you know what I mean?
Nelufar (16:06):
Gosh, it’s repulsion. I'm repulsed by her
Producer Sarah (16:09):
And yet…
Nelufar (16:10):
And yet I'm drawn to her. Yeah. The reason this chapter is so interesting to me is because we're able to understand evil. I always find evil is a label that we use in society to talk about things that are beyond our realm of comprehension and evil acts may exist in this world, but do evil people. And when I read this chapter, I have to really be confronted as someone who's experienced horrifying. The trustees, like, did they mean it? You know, it's an opportunity to peer into the mind about that sense of cruelty. Like surely the people who were fighting in a Afghanistan in 1989 didn't mean for me to be homeless. And yet here I am,
Nelufar V/O (16:55):
I'd read this book and this exact passage lots of times, and it's always resonated with me. But until this ritual, I'd never been forced to reflect on how the story connected to my own life. I was forced to become a refugee when I was just six years old. And today, millions upon millions of people have fled Afghanistan for that very same reason.
Nelufar (17:18):
It feels too big. We're talking about things at 11 o'clock on a Monday morning, <laugh> that feel like I tussle with these issues. It's so big, you know.
Producer Sarah (17:31):
You’ve come to confront Bellatrix.
Nelufar (17:39):
After all of that, sharing and chat about Bellatrix, we had a cup of tea and moved on to the next text, one that Sarah had selected for me.
Producer Sarah (17:51):
So you chose Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Yes. To read first, and I read that so much that the cover has fallen off, and you'll notice that the second book that I've chosen by absolute coincidence, I've read as well, so much that the cover has also fallen off. And that's just a coincidence.
Nelufar (18:07):
No, but it means something.
Producer Sarah (18:08):
So both of them have covers full enough. Now I want you to read this chapter. When I read this book, I felt like I'd waited my whole life to read this book.
Nelufar (18:16):
Oh My God, Sarah, that's beautiful. Can you just expand on that tiny bit?
Producer Sarah (18:20):
I read it in my A Levels and I had a very dreamy looking English teacher. He’s very handsome, and he handed me this book, and when I was reading it, I was like, this is the book that I want to read my whole life.
Nelufar (18:33):
How dreamy are we talking <laugh>?
Producer Sarah (18:35):
He was so unbelievably handsome that like when you see him, you're like, how are you even possible <laugh> as a man. Okay, so have you ever read to a lighthouse by Virginia Woolf?
Nelufar (18:45):
Do you know, it's one of a few Virginia Woolf books I haven't read.
Producer Sarah 18:47):
Actually, I'm not gonna tell you anything. Just read it. It's chapter eight. It's three or four pages long.
Nelufar (18:53):
All right. So to the Lighthouse, Virginia Woolf, chapter eight
Producer Sarah (19:01):
Of the third section.
Nelufar (19:03):
Of the third section.
Nelufar V/O (19:05):
Okay. A quick summary for those of us who haven't read it. To the lighthouse is a book set in the early 1900s, and it's written in three sections. This particular chapter goes inside the mind of a young man called James. He's on a boat with his father and sister, and they are all visiting a lighthouse. Hmm. Well, in this chapter, we hear him reflect on his father's past cruelty. I read these four pages like I was savoring the last bit of a slab of chocolate. I took a breath and read Sarah the sparkle lines that spoke to me.
Nelufar (19:47):
Everything became really close to one. Everything in the whole world seemed to stand still. They alone knew each other. Turning back among the many leaves, which the past had folded in him, peering into the heart of the forest where light and shade so checkered each other for nothing, was simply one thing. Powerless to flick off these grains of misery, which settled on his mind one after another. Gosh, really, really engrossing the very act of writing the words down as I was reading them and checking to make sure that I wasn't getting it wrong. It forces a focus. That's really, it's like meditating. This feels like meditating. Mm.
Producer Sarah (20:53):
Can I tell you something that's come up for me? I actually think this chapter that I've chosen is very similar to the chapter that you've chosen.
Nelufar (20:59):
Absolutely agree with you. Yes. But it feels like a more mature version of this childhood rage.
Producer Sarah. (21:06):
Yes. So first chapter that you've chosen Yes. Is about Harry Potter rage,
Nelufar (21:13):
Kid, angry, sad things,
Producer Sarah (21:15):
Calculated cruelty,
Nelufar (21:16):
Magical fantasy, world of magic and wands.
Producer Sarah (21:19):
Yeah. And despair. Right. And death. Then this chapter, which is the Virginia Woolf chapter, which is in the point of view of James, and it's also about calculated cruelty. How do you reconcile yourself when someone is doing bad things? Someone that you love is doing bad things, and how do you look back on that and how do you cope with that and how do you respond to that? And they're both kind of grappling with that in a way.
Nelufar (21:41):
Whereas one, the Harry Potter book, the chapter is a very active chapter. You know, statues come alive and ward off curses and this chapter eight To The Lighthouse is entirely in his mindscape.
Nelufar V/O (21:58):
Sarah and I are very, very good friends, and doing this ritual with her felt like adding another layer to our friendship. This ritual connected these chapters of two very different books, and it felt like it represented us in some way. Normal life was calling us, and it was time to close the ritual space, but I planned to come back for one last round of florilegia. The next morning I got into my car and headed home, thinking really hard on what I wanted to present to Producer Sarah as my final text for this ritual.
Day two. I was back at Sarah's front door on her north London street.
Nelufar (22:48):
Okay, off we go for another sacred reading.
Nelufar V/O (22:53):
It was time for another text, and the one I chose is extremely important to me. I've got this imaginary bookshelf in my mind. Where I keep all the books that I've ever read on this shelf is this secular text, which above all else, sits next to the sacred ones because of its bittersweet nature. I thought that the Floralegia treatment could help me get more from it.
Producer Sarah (23:18):
So number one, read the text. Number two, write down any sentence which sparkles out for you in the book, the Sacred Book. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> or the Sacred Poem
Nelufar (23:31):
In this case, the sacred poem.
Nelufar (23:33):
It's called the Clod and the Pebble from Songs of Innocence and of Experience by William Blake. All right, here we go.
Nelufar (23:44):
Ah, Love Seeketh, not itself to please nor for itself have any care. But for another, gives its ease and builds a heaven in hell's despair. So sung a little clod of clay trodden with the cattle's feet, but a pebble of the brook warbled out these meters meet, love, seeketh only self to please, To bind another to it’s delight, joy in another's loss of ease, and build a Hell in Heavens, despite.
Nelufar (24:32):
The more we do this type of reading or this type of analysis, you can fall into it a bit quicker. You slip into that mode a bit sooner. Yeah. This is, to me, one of the most potent pieces of English ever devised, and those themes of cruelty and love and loss and significance and inconsequential ness, all I think appear in this text. And you could be in a situation that is horrifying and you could be feeding big, big emotions, but somebody else external to you can come and just put a soothing balm on that and show you heaven despite of the hell you're in. That's love. Right? Surely. That's love. I've always remembered this poem. Gosh, this has been a sacred text to me for ages then, isn't it?
Producer Sarah (25:33):
So we've had three texts. Yeah. And they all explore A type of cruelty.
Nelufar (25:37):
Yeah.
Producer (25:39):
And they all explore how to love in the face of that
Nelufar(25:41):
Yes, exactly.
Nelufar V/O (25:46):
We chose a quote from each text that we could make into our own special prayer. First, I read my three quotes out loud, and then I offered my own words of blessing.
Nelufar(26:00):
You need to mean them potter. You need to really want to cause pain to enjoy it. Turning back among the many leaves, which the past had folded in him, pressing into the heart of the forest where light and shade, so check her each other and build a hell in heavens. Despite.
The blessing I want to offer is the knowing that I can do hard things, and sometimes there will be no meaning behind the cruelty, but that I can find meaning in my response, in how I behave, and in the compassion and understanding that I show. I hope to take the teachings of this moment, of these sacred secular texts, on into the future.
Producer Sarah: Amen.
Nelufar: Amen.
Producer Sarah (27:14):
Oh, oh. I Love how they narratively made sense.
Nelufar (27:16):
They narratively made sense. We did not plan this. Folks, we are not that bright <laugh>.
Producer Sarah (27:23):
Do you think it the text itself or the way that you read it that makes it sacred and meaningful?
Nelufar (27:27):
It's the way that I read it. We chose these texts for a host of subconscious and conscious reasons, and to make sure of things that are important to you and things that are important to me. Your meaning has seeped into me and my meaning has seeped into you. So it's, it's so much more than that, but it doesn't feel pompous. What is your takeaway?
Producer Sarah (27:49):
My takeaway is that you can take your favorite books and your favorite novels, your favorite bit of poetry, and have your own prayer that will help you and fortify you.
Nelufar (27:57):
Yeah. Let's close the book on that. Yeah.
Producer Sarah: Amen.
Nelufar: Amen. All right. I'm gonna stop recording.
Nelufar V/O (28:08):
I'm not gonna lie. I'm loving how those rituals felt a little rebellious. There's a real difference to me between being told to look for spiritual wisdom in a book and searching for that spiritual meaning in texts that I choose. The ritual took me out of my head, and it asked me to really explain and to explore thought patterns and emotions out loud in a safe space with someone I trust and respect. Will you choose your own sacred text and read a favorite book through the ritual of Floral Ledger? If you do, will you let us know how it goes?
Nelufar V/O (28:44):
Thank you for listening. If you'd like to share your experience of this ritual, or you've got another one for me to explore, please let me know. Connect with me at Nelufar on Twitter and TikTok and follow us on Instagram at the Ritually Pod. And we have a bonus listener episode coming up, and I wanna hear from you. What do you think of the series so far? Are there any rituals you've been doing or that you think I should look into? You can record a voice memo and send that over for us to listen to or just write down your thoughts and I'll read them. Our email address is richly project brazen.com. You can also record a voicemail on our website, richly fm. If you like what you've been hearing, please give us a review. Rate us and subscribe and sign up for our newsletter to get the latest ritually updates. We've got the link in our show notes. Thank you to Vanessa Zoltan for coming on this podcast. Podcast. You can find Vanessa Zoltan online at Vanessa m Zoltan on Instagram and Twitter. Check out her book, praying with Jane Eyre, reflections on Reading as a Sacred Practice. And her podcast, of course, Harry Potter and The Sacred Text. And if you are a Mary Oliver fan, check out Vanessa's literary walking pilgrimage surrounding the poet's work in Cape Cod. November 10 through to 13, head over to Not sorry works.com to learn more about this and their other programs.
Nelufar (30:13):
If you've enjoyed my conversation with Vanessa Zoltan and want to hear us really getting into it, subscribe to Brazen Plus on Apple Podcasts. To hear the extended version of our interview, Vanessa Zoltan tells me about preaching from Jane Eyre.
Vanessa Zoltan (30:27):
The first line of chapter two of Jane Eyre is, I resisted all the way. And the fact that Charlotte Bronte felt that way, you know in 1845, makes me feel even less alone, that women have felt this way for hundreds of years.
Nelufar (30:44):
Next week on Ritually, we're taking a ritual along on a road trip to conquer burnout.
Nelufar (30:52):
I make this offering to connect with the earth in whatever shape form that it might take, whether it's pavement, grass, or fountains like this.
Nelufar (31:07):
See you then,
Nelufar (31:12):
This has been Ritually with me, Nelufar Hedayat. This podcast is written and co-created by me and Sarah Kendall, who's also our series producer. We produce the show in partnership with Brazen. Susie Armitage is our story editor. Troy Holmes is our audio editor. Mixing and Sound Design by Clair Urbahn. Our theme tune is by Amaroon, and our original music is by Jay Brown. Executive producers for Brazen are Bradley Hope and Tom Wright. At Brazen, Mariangel Gonzalez is our project manager, and Lucy Woods is our fact checker and head of research. Charlotte Cooper is our marketing consultant, Francesca Gilardi Quadrio Curzio, and Nour Abdel Latif are our podcast strategists. Megan Dean is programming manager and Ryan Ho is a series creative director. Our cover art is designed by Julien Pradier. For more from Ritually, head to the Brazen channel on Apple Podcasts. There, you can subscribe to Brazen Plus for ad free listening and exclusive access to bonus episodes. If you would like to learn more about our series check out our website, Ritually.fm.